PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale, joined today by my friend, Jessica Tappana. She is an LCSW in Missouri. She owns a group practice and Simplified SEO Consulting, a business that helps therapists create SEO or search engine optimization. A lot of you listening probably don't even know what the hell that means. We're going to talk about that today. We're also going to talk about alternative streams of income, how you can do that so that you aren't just seeing clients 60-minute sessions and increments of your time. And we are also going to talk about the stresses of being a small business owner that a lot of people don't often see.
Thanks for being on here. I know we've been trying for a while. And that's kind of the nature of this, right? Is like, schedules get wonky and crazy. And then, all of a sudden, it's a month and a half later.o get business [INDISCERNIBLE:
PATRICK CASALE: It's one of those situations, you know, where you look at your calendar, you're like, "Yeah, that looks like a good day and a good time." And then, you do it. And then, as it approaches you're like, "Fuck, I don't have that time available." Or like, "I've overscheduled myself." So, I do appreciate your flexibility.
And I want to talk about, you know, the importance of what you do in your other business besides being a therapist because for everyone listening, a lot of them are starting out or, you know, in a situation where maybe their practice is going but it could be thriving, maybe they're not getting the calls that they want. And a lot of people ask like, what is the recipe for success, you know if networking is thrown into the mix and a good website? But SEO is really important. And I imagine that 95% of the people listening don't even know what that means. So, you're the expert, take it away.
JESSICA TAPPANA: Yeah, first of all, I didn't know what it meant either. When I created my first website, I remember going to lunch with a friend and she's like, "Okay, are you doing SEO?" And I'm like, writing it down, "Sure, SEO." I kind of typed though. Like, I went home, and deep dove, and like I just… You know, when you're starting out you have more time and as you go through your practice, you have more money. And so, for me when I had that more time, and it wasn't always traditional time. I started my practice when my now five-year-old was born, but like, you know, feed her, and now I'm wide awake. And so, I would get online and SEO worked well for me. Everybody kept telling me they're like, you have to, like, get out there and have coffee with 10 people a week or something like that. And I just didn't want pay the babysitter, quite frankly, did not have the money to pay a babysitter or to go to coffee with friends, even though I love doing it. So, I started looking into this.e received is, [INDISCERNIBLE:
And so, there are all these different things that Google considers and it does feel overwhelming when you first start hearing about it. And it does sound like a foreign language just like if you and I start talking about like all these different letters. I know my backgrounds in DBT. And like man, like that can sound like Greek to people that haven't heard it. Certainly, if you have somebody [INDISCERNIBLE 00:04:00] sounds, you know, worse than Greek. Although, like, you know, then you decipher it and it's amazing and life-changing. To me, search engine optimization was that way. It was like, "What are you talking about? But I took it like one little piece at a time." Like, I heard the word meta description and looked up what a meta description was and eventually figured out.
We kind of have a formula now where even though there are tons and tons of things Google considers, we've kind of figured out for most therapist websites, like, if we do these things on the website it's more likely to show up. And so, I say to people all the time like, "Man, if I could figure this out any therapist can."
And I think that early on in your practice where you do have that time, even if it's in the middle of the night, it's a really good time for you to try your hand and not be afraid to tinker with your site and work on a bit yourself, and then, later on, if you can afford to hire someone else, you know, my practice has outsourced too, my other business for years now because we can. That's great too. And sometimes saves time and other people can do it faster.
But yeah, sorry. Well, long explanation, but I love it and I think it's such a powerful way of meeting potential clients where they are.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's really well said. And it's funny because when we were talking before we hit record you said, "I don't really know a lot about technology, you know, this isn't my strong suit." But here you are owning a business helping therapists be seen on the internet.
And you're so right, when you said, a beautiful website, you could be the best clinician in the fucking world and you could do all the right things, but if people can't find you online, especially, now, as we move into much more of a telehealth era, and people are becoming more comfortable searching for therapists near them if you are not on page one or on the top of the lists, what are the odds as a human being you scroll to page two? I mean, we want fast, accessible information at our fingertips in this day and age. And if we are not showing up, you're probably not getting calls.
And for those of you listening, and you've heard me preach how important networking is, and I stand by that, but if you really can't get into networking because it's just so time-consuming, or overwhelming, or a situation like Jessica's in five years ago or whatever the case may be, you've got to do something before you build a reputation. Like, until you build a reputation in the community and you're well known for what you do, there's no way for clients to find you if you're not showing up in Google searches. And Google's the most powerful search engine in the world.
So, a lot of people, I think, do get lost in the acronym of like, okay, I've heard this thing, right? Like, I either do Google Ads, or I do SEO, or I do SEM, or whatever the hell it is, and then, they get overwhelmed, and they're like, "I'm not going to do any of it."
So, tell me about like layman's terms, right? Like, why this is so important for new therapists starting out and even established therapists or business owners? If you're listening to this and you're a business owner, it is still important for you to do it. It doesn't matter if you're a plumber, whether your own business, a landscaper, a tattoo artist. Like, people are looking for you on the internet. And that is your virtual real estate, more or less, and it's so important to be visible.
JESSICA TAPPANA: It is and I'm a big believer. I got a lot of different advice about marketing when I started out, and one of the pieces I really loved is like, "Find what works for you." And so, I'm not going to say that the only way to build a business is to do SEO. It's the way that's worked for me and the way that's worked for tons and tons of other clients. But I think at a bare minimum, even if you are networking or you're being referred by somebody, a lot of times what they're going to do then is go search your name. And if they're talking to a friend, or they're talking to their doctor, and they say, "Yeah, you should go check out, you know, so and so therapist." And they like, start looking up online, and they can't find you. Like, what are the chances that they're going to ever reach out?
In fact, you were talking about that we don't even go to page two. I mean, really the talk in SEO, where a lot of times it's about the zero-click search that people are doing, right? And so, now we are like competing to make it so easy that somebody doesn't even have to click on the website and that's where if you have a physical office location, talking about Google My Business, is a great way to show up. I know if you're further along in your SEO journey one thing I'm doing right now is trying to get more of those, like where you ask a question and there's like an answer. You know, I'm trying to focus on how to show up more and more in those so that, again, like people can get an answer about some basic things without even clicking. Of course, we want them to click because we want them to call, but just doing whatever we can to get in front of people, you don't have much time to win people over. So, if you can get to the top that's really powerful.
And I think, you know, at a minimum, its credibility, people being able to find you for your name. But unfortunately, we do still live in a world where there is still some stigma. I think it's getting better. But there is still some stigma around it. And so, people still are turning constantly to Google for various services, including mental health services.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. Like, if you can allow for that ease of access to information, whether it's by answering questions, having good content on your website that answers these questions or explains these things on blog posts, which are really important too, for everyone listening, writing blogs and optimizing them, really important.
But think about like you are searching for a restaurant and you Google them and their website doesn't come up. Or they don't have a Google My Business page, and you don't see their hours, and their directions, and their phone number, you're not going to call. Like, you're not going to go much further than that and do a deep dive. And you're probably going to say, "Oh, man, I really wanted to get pizza from this place." Maybe they're not even open anymore and I need to move on to the next one.
And you're doing the same disservice when you're not establishing your online presence as a mental health therapist because accessibility and relatability are crucial. And accessibility means people being able to find you, people need to know that you're open for business.
I think we so often think like, "Okay, I'm going to start a private practice, I've got a Psychology Today page, I've got a website." Nobody is calling. And if we are not accessible, if people don't know we exist, you're not showing up in searches, you're really throwing money in the drain, essentially. Like, you're not really doing yourself a service and you're not doing your clients a service if they can't find you.
JESSICA TAPPANA: And not a long-term service either. The other thing to take care of, like restaurant example even further. By the way, the more time I spend as a business owner, the more frustrated I get when I'm trying to give somebody my business and their website is difficult to navigate because if my friend says like, "Hey, you should check out such and such restaurant." I'm a bit of a picky eater. I'm going to look up the restaurant. I may not even tell my friend how picky of an eater I am, but I want to really quickly be able to tell what kind of food they serve and see a menu. And if I can't very quickly figure that out, then a lot of times will give you more than, I'm on to the next suggestion.
I think with therapists it's the same thing. And I say this all the time, when I'm talking about SEO, I think that one thing that being a therapist myself that I'm always focused on is that it's about more than just getting your website in front of people. And it's even about more than getting people to click on your website. And it's even about more than getting people to call you, it's about getting the right clients to call you.
And so, I think, you know, your website needs to be very clear who you who you serve, and what kind of clients are the right clients for you and your brand needs to come through.
And so, in my world, it's all about, like, balancing your brand. It's all about being very clear. We talk about service pages for SEO that like, you know, you want to have very specific pages, not say you do everything under the sun, but niche down and have pages that say what your niches are, what you're really, really good at.
But it's not just for SEO, it's also because if somebody comes to your page, your menu, essentially, is like what your specialties are. And just like if I'm looking at a restaurant, I want to know if they serve sushi or Italian. Somebody coming to your website wants to know, do you specialize in addiction, or couples, or trauma, or DBT? And that needs to be very easy for them to quickly determine. You know, it's even better if they can go to that specific page because that specific page is what shows up in search results. Because yeah, you've got make your website as accessible as you can too, not just to get you there, but once you're on page what are you serving?
PATRICK CASALE: That's such a good analogy and comparison. And you know, I do a lot of website audits not in an SEO sense, but in a content sense with the coaching that I do. And I fall on a lot of websites that are one page, right? Like a homepage and, and a bunch of bullet points of like, I do this, this, this, this, this.
And essentially as a client, right? Like, as a therapy client, I've been one my entire life, if I land on a page like that, I don't really get a sense of what your style is, how you speak, like how you relate. I'm just kind of thinking like, "Okay, you kind of say you do it all." And that doesn't really make me want to give you a call unless I absolutely have to.
And I think that is the important piece of all of this, is to recognize like, you have to niche down, you have to be really specific in who you're talking to. And it has to be really clear. And like you said, it has to flow really well. It can't be clunky, it has to be like, okay, we have pages for each individual service.
And another point and I don't want to overly complicate this, is like, in some parts of the country, or the state, or surrounding townspeople may be searching for couples' counseling, or couples' therapy, or marital counseling, or marital therapy. So, it really does depend. And that's why you really need someone who understands how to build websites and do keyword research too.g that I teach [INDISCERNIBLE:
A lot of times, like a whole state, might be the same geographic area and be similar, but I always use like Illinois an example. Chicago, it has almost a different culture than some of the more rural parts of the state. And so, you know, there's lots and lots of complicating factors in choosing those words that you're going to choose to put on your website. And you do want to be intentional.
But I think one of my favorite things about Google is Google cares about giving people a good experience too. Like, Google's a business, why they've been the, you know, largest search engine for so long is like, they care about making sure that the results at the top are the ones that have the content people are looking for.
And so, I think that, for me, even though marketing, and SEO, and technology, and all that thought fell very outside the wheelhouse of being a therapist when I first started, kind of the more I'm in the field, the more I'm like, "No, actually, it's a really natural progression." Because I care about being a resource to my community, I care about helping people who maybe never even come in for therapy, I care about giving my clients the best service and setting them up the best I can for when they walk in the doors like my group practice.
And so, you know, we can talk all day about the technology side of things, but I think that, you know, it's a part of the reason that I love SEO so much is like, okay, I'm serving two audiences, Google and the client. And while they may come into a little bit of conflict, sometimes, most of the time they don't, most of the time, like you talked about blogging, for instance. I use blog posts as homework all the time.
I have a new clinician that started last week. The first thing we did is we're like, hey, write us three blog posts so we can get those out to your new clients as we're assigning them and set you up as an expert. We even did it at Simplified. We have someone that's almost done with their first phase of their training. And she wrote a great blog post on using Google Analytics. And so, we're like, "Fantastic." When all her new clients are going to get that blog post when they talk about analytics because they'll see like, we're setting her up as an expert, we're helping, and hopefully, we're providing real true value to our clients, not just blowing smoke or doing something to manipulate the search engine. It's about service.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah and I think that means acting and creating a business that run within your values, right? If you're going to actually put out good content, and you really want it to be helpful, regardless, if someone lands on your page and calls or not, at least they're getting something out of it.
And, you know, people seem to think like how many people are really searching for therapists in the area? And even in very saturated markets, I mean, so many people need support, right? So, like, if you look at your Google Analytics, and you're like, "Holy shit, 20,000 people looked at my website this month. Like, but I didn't get any calls, or like, I'm not getting the calls that I want." That's probably an indication that something needs to be tweaked or changed. Like, it's great that you're driving traffic. Now it's time to convert. And I see a lot of websites that don't convert well just because they're clunky, or they're not clear once you land on them.
So, I want to ask you because you mentioned this before we started recording, you have a group practice, and then, you started Simplified. I don't know which one came first. But I like the fact that a lot of therapists are kind of branching out into other things because I do think we need other things to alleviate the stress of the job and to ensure that we're using the other skills that we have. So, can you tell me a little bit about the like, kind of catalyst or the event that kind of led to saying I want to start a business that I don't know a lot about?
JESSICA TAPPANA: Yeah, so I decided when I was 12 years old that when I was 30 I was going to open a private practice. Nothing else in my world went according to the timeline I developed when I was like 12. Like, literally nothing kids, marriage, none of it. But that did. And so, I started my practice, and I was going to be a solo clinician seeing 30 clients a week or whatever.intimidated by [INDISCERNIBLE:
But yeah, like we were talking about before, I think that the big thing for me, and some of that comes from my background of DVT and trauma therapy, but I think that's actually probably true of almost every single specialty out there, that it's heavy. It is life and death, like in many, many cases. And I think that goes whether you're doing addiction, or eating disorders, or couples, it's life and death of the marriage, maybe.
And so, there's so much of what we do that is so intense, that our brains, they need a break. There's a reason in my practice, like full-time is 23 client sessions. It'd make sense for it to be more of it, but again, lots of very values-based decision right now because I want people to have that balance, and I recognize that being a therapist is hard. It's emotionally difficult.
My worst moments, like, you know, having a business where we're on people's websites, we've made mistakes. There was a Thanksgiving weekend that Denis and I were home. We're like working all weekend fixing something for somebody. But what we kept saying is like, this is not life and death.
Worst case scenario, somebody's website's down. And that's bad. And we're going to have to work really hard to make it up to them. And like, I don't mean to, like, minimize that because as a business owner, that's a really bad thing. But as a therapist who's worked with, like, clients that are legitimately life and death situations, like, at least it's not bad and I think that that's so often what we're looking for is what are those ways that we can build in that shift and thinking that makes us better therapists.
People have asked me like, "Hey, you run two businesses, are you going to stop seeing clients?" And maybe I will someday, maybe I will reach that. But right now, I love it because I'm so picky about who I take on. It's only my ideal clients. I leave feeling like I made a difference.really to help [INDISCERNIBLE:
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's really well said. I think that's great advice for anyone listening and thinking about, what else can I be doing? What would this do for me emotionally, financially? And I do think the importance of having your ideal client and your niche are crucial. I know a lot of you who are listening who are newer to the field may disagree. I think you may circle back to that in a couple of years and reevaluate that. But ultimately, I think that's really important to name it. And, like you said, life and death, right?
And it's heavy work. And the last couple of years have gotten even heavier. And the work we do is invaluable, but it's exhausting.
And I, at this point in time, with my coaching business, and my group practice, I only have a handful of clients left, but they're my ideal clients, for sure. And I did that purposefully. Not that I didn't want to be a clinician anymore, I just didn't have the time to be a clinician anymore. And I never wanted to lose that perspective or that clinical skill set. So, I just said like, this is the number, this is what I can do comfortably without building resentment or regret in my own decision-making. And that's worked out really well.
But I mean, it is important to start thinking about this career could be the rest of your career, you could be in private practice forever, love it, whatever the case may be, but there are going to be a lot of you who are looking for something else. That could be from boredom, that could be from burnout, that could be from overwhelm, it could simply be because you have a lot of good ideas and a lot of skills. So, it's just important to maybe take a step back sometimes when you have free time and just kind of reevaluate what else would you like to do? And this career is ever-evolving and changing. It doesn't have to look one way for the rest of the time.
You know, that's a good segue too because you and I were talking about, like, the behind-the-scenes of being someone who owns multiple businesses, and an entrepreneur, and small business owner. And I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I actually sent out a newsletter about this I'm like, thinking about burnout, thinking about like as you grow and develop a reputation and following. Like, how much more energy that that takes. And you still have to show up for your family and you still have to show up for yourself and take care of yourself and your mental health and your staff and it's a lot.
And I don't think everyone always sees that. I think we see the pictures on social media of like people at the beach, and people on vacation, and the new car someone bought, and the freedom that they have. And a lot of those are true. But I don't think we talk about or look at this stuff that is actually like the grind and the heart of running a business that takes up a lot of damn energy too.
JESSICA TAPPANA: It does and it takes a lot of you. And, you know, I've been going to a lot of conferences and I love it. To be honest, after two years of a pandemic, there's a sense of energy I'm getting from reconnecting with people and seeing people in person and meeting people, like when I met you briefly when I was with some friends in Ashville. But that's so good for me.
But there was one this spring where I left and cried on the plane and I don't love to cry in public at all. But I just felt like the world's worst mother. And I'm not the world's worst mother. I know that cognitively. Like, I stayed home with my kids for how long, you know? But it's like something's always got to give and to find that balance. And I often remind myself like what the balance looks like this week it doesn't have to look like next week because, to be honest, it always feels like I'm failing somewhere. And I'm so intense in both of my businesses about maintaining the quality of care that, you know, I came and tell you how personally I take it if someone's upset in either business, and I want people to tell me that and I'll move heaven on earth to make it better. But what you don't is how much time goes into, oh my gosh, I've let someone down, or we haven't done good work, or I should have done this differently, or kind of that bad moments that I have to kind of walk myself through.
But I think that it comes down to kind of having to accept that all things can't be done perfectly. And so, I'm constantly trying to like make values-based decisions and just be intentional about where I'll need my energy because it's going to shift, and where it is right now is certainly not where it was a month ago, where it was a month ago was, yeah, it was actually kind of with a different project with hiring and training people. And now it's like I'm implementing a new thing in my practice, I'm really excited about this, so it's shifted, but man, then I'm like, "But all those things I was doing last month because we had new staff like, shouldn't I be doing them?" Maybe like, no, I can't. I can't physically, there's only so many hours in a day and I can sprint sometimes, but too often it feels like no matter how hard I sprint or for how long like it's not enough. There's never going to be enough. But we…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's really relatable for a lot of people listening. You hear it all the time, I witness it all the time with my friend groups, and my colleagues, and myself, and I think that if you are really invested in the businesses you've created, the people you're supporting, the people you're helping, the people you're employing, it doesn't feel like it's ever enough and you always feel like you're letting someone down. And you can really get into that mindset of kind of almost hopelessness even too and even some depression that comes with like entrepreneurial life. And I wouldn't trade it for the world. Like, I love the autonomy and the freedom to make my own decisions. But that doesn't mean that it's a cakewalk every day.
And we're making some major changes, like I told you, in my group practice, that's taking a ton of energy. My coaching business, you know, is kind of slowing down because I need it to slow down. Like, I get so many requests for coaching consults and calls and I just say no. And I never used to say no. So, it's been helpful, but then you think I'm letting them down. Like, by not being available. But you just can't be available for everyone all the time. And it's just not possible.
So, I think, for everyone listening, you know, trying to find your balance, trying to find ways to incorporate the things that are important to you outside of work. Because I think a lot of entrepreneurs are creative types and we like working, and we like working on our businesses and coming up with new ideas. And we can also get stuck in that and that can kind of create that shadow side or that that blind spot of what am I missing? Or what am I not giving attention to? That could be your family, your friend groups, yourself. I mean, there's a lot of things that can go to the backburner if you're not careful. So, really trying to put some pieces in place so that you can have a successful business venture and career but also protect your energy and take care of yourself. I think that is really, really important to try to figure out how to start putting those pieces in place, especially, for those of you who are newer to the field, who are really excited to be doing these things. Great. I encourage it, I was that person, but just be aware that you cannot run at that speed the entirety of your career. It will kind of destroy you at the end of the day.
JESSICA TAPPANA: I like how you point out how worth it it is because that's who I am. I'm like my biggest strength and my biggest weaknesses is that I really, really am passionate about both my businesses and the individual therapy. I still do a little bit of that. And being a present mother, no present spouse, and all of those things and some of my biggest strength may be that like, I genuinely love all those things. And it's my biggest weakness that then I want to do everything perfectly. And though it's worth it. Like, I can honestly say for one of the first times in my life there's very little I would change in my world right now. But that doesn't mean it's easy.
And yeah, I liked how you were saying, like, do things for yourself, find moments for yourself. Even for me sometimes it's moments within the big things. I used to always feel like people spend way too much on fancy coffee drinks and all that. And, yeah, why would you do that? Now, I don't drink coffee, but I love a lot of these other drinks and so whether it's local coffee shops or Starbucks, I totally have my drinks and I'm spending what I would have previously called too much.
But sometimes there are days where legitimately going through the drive-through and getting a hot chocolate in the winter, and sitting there, and enjoying it, and mindfully drinking it. Surely, it's not even a huge thing but it makes a difference. And it's worth every penny. Even if it is overpriced, even if it has all the things, even if it is unhealthy. It's like that moment of like, okay, I can do this, or like when I get annoyed that I have to take off for yet another doctor's appointment, whether it's for myself or my children reminding myself like, hey, like this is annoying, but wow, how cool to have a job where I can do this, you know? Where I'm not worried that I'm going to get in trouble or run out of vacation time because I have to do this. I get to make the choice that that my health is worth taking off or my children's health is worth taking off too, to do this.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's really well said, even the hot chocolate example, you know, just the ability to say, "Well, I'm going to go do this right now."
You know, I go to the coffee shop near my house almost every single day. And I could make breakfast here but I don't want to. But I think it's also like a social component of like, oh, I get to be in a coffee shop, I get to just be around people, if I plan on being in my office all day talking to, like, people virtually. And then, like, I get to do that if I want to do that. Like, if I want to build these breaks on my schedule, I get to do that. If I want to take off a certain amount of time, I get to do that.
And, you know, I don't think you can put a price on all of that stuff and the autonomy behind entrepreneurialship. So, that is definitely my favorite part of all of this even if some days are harder than others, they are not all hard. And I always think that my worst day in my current venture is a million times better than my best day at my community mental health job. And that is something I try to keep in perspective all the time.
JESSICA TAPPANA: Yeah, absolutely. And when it's not, you know, when things get out of whack, then we have the power to change it if we recognize it. It might take time. You know, when I realized I had way too many plans and needed to cut down, like it took time because I wanted to care for my clients, and connect them the right way, and make sure that they each were connected with somebody, but like, I had the ability to do it. And so, I actually told my plans and my co-workers and everybody, like I make my schedule one semester. We're going to college town one semester at a time, my family's needs, my client's needs, my needs may change semester to semester.and the client [INDISCERNIBLE:
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's well said. And evolving and evolution in this field and in career path too, and wherever you are right now doesn't mean that's where you're going to be in six months, a year, five years from now. So, just allowing for the journey and just embracing it because you made a decision to work for yourself. And it's a beautiful, beautiful process that doesn't come without painful moments too. But I think those help guide us.
Yeah, I really have enjoyed having you on here. And I'd like to probably have a follow-up about what we were talking about in terms of keywords and Google searches and all that stuff. But I really appreciate you making the time. And please tell the audience where they can find more of what Simplified SEO has to offer because I think it can be really valuable. I use them right now for my group practice. I'm really happy with the results and I couldn't recommend them enough.
JESSICA TAPPANA: Thank you. Yeah, our website is simplifiedseoconsulting.com and a great place to start if you're just like, what is this? It feels overwhelming. We have a free seven-day email series where I just kind of each day pop into your inbox and say, like, here's a basic thing that you can do to improve your ranking. You know, they're pretty basic. But the idea is that you start to get a feel for what it is, and is this fascinating, and something you want to learn more. Great, we have lots of resources for that. Is this something that maybe you could do, but that you just don't have the time or motivation to do? And you can start to get a feel for it.
PATRICK CASALE: That's awesome. And I'll have that in the show notes too. They have a do-it-yourself course, you can outsource completely. So, you have a lot of options there in terms of having more visibility on Google searches, making sure your company shows up first. I-
JESSICA TAPPANA: And if-
PATRICK CASALE: I'm sorry, go ahead.
JESSICA TAPPANA: Sorry. And if somebody does want to do it themselves, that's a good point where you can put the show notes, there will be a code for 20% off. It'll be HTTP, any of our DIY courses. And we try to keep those, you know, as affordable as we can to start with, but if you can take that 20% off and make it even a little bit easier to dig in and try to do some of this on your own, especially, if you're in that startup phase. Who knows? You may end up deciding you love it like I do.
PATRICK CASALE: You may and then hey, that can be a whole new venture. Just for clarification, I think the code will probably end up being ATPP just so everyone has it for All Things Private Practice. So, that will be in the show notes, and when we release this episode that will be live and available to all of you.
For everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes out every Sunday all major platforms. you can like, download, subscribe and share. If you want to find more of me, coaching, consulting, retreat planning, podcast information, if you want to be a podcast guest go to allthingspractice.com or join the All Things Private Practice Facebook group. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week. Thanks, Jessica.
JESSICA TAPPANA: Thank you.